Curse

freekedoutfish · Nov 12, 2007, 10:21 AM // 10:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

You never cease to amaze me, fish. How about you answer your own question, except replace "a non-maxed skill" with "a non-max armor," "a non-max weapon," and "not all attribute points."

I asked you this before, and I never got an answer, so I'll ask again:

Hypothetically, if there were endgame armor that added +5 extra armor per class (PvE-only effect), but could only be purchased when you get, let's say rank 10 in some ridiculously heavy grind title (let's say Treasure Hunter or something); well, would you be ok with that? I mean, +5 armor is not a lot, it's a very "slight advantage." And, ya know, everyone is fine with normal armor; it works fine before, and it'll work fine after. Right?

1) The example is daft (sorry) and would never happen because the wisdom title has no logically connection to armor at all.

You cant make an example like needing rank10 wisdom for armor, and compare that to needing rank5 Norn or Asura etc etc.

The GWEN title are connected to the storyline and have a purpose because you are meant to earn their respect before you can get their gear. How exactly would wisdom work in that respect?

Try to use a more realistic example next time.

2) No I wouldnt care! Im sure there are new green weapons on the market which are better then my current gear and give extra health or energy or some edge but I dont run out and get them.

I could put an armor+5 mod onto a weapon and get that boost, but I dont!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frozy

You beat me to this exact type of reply

Also, fish, what rank do you get by simply playing the game, not grinding for the titles? 5? possibly less.
Now, please visit one of the GW Wiki sites, and check the EotN skills.
Are you still saying the difference between rank 5 and rank 10 isn't big?

Are you another one of these people who wants to deny its possible to get rank 5 accross by races by just playing GWEN?

Grow up! I did it and it is possible. Believe me or not, I dont care! So yes, you can get rank 5 on all title in GWEN by just playin the game. What was your point? This just shows armor and weapons in GWEN are easily accessed if you just play the actual game.

And yes rank10 will make your pve only skills more powerfull, but as Ive asked before and no one has answered!

Why do we need pve only skills maxed out? what aspect of the game requires and needs you to have them maxed out? Someone answer me that!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mist Walker Skarloc

/signed

It's not about being easy. It's about grinding being boring. If I grind, I want the benefits of that all the time. I did the grinding, not my character itself, so why does only the single character get the benefits and not all of my account?

You know what I find entertaining. If they did actually make these titles account based, and you all had maxed pve only skills from the start and maxed status effects from the start....

...I bet you would all turn around and start winging that GWEN was suddenly too easy due to the added damage and oober strong skills at your disposal!

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackSephir

Captain Clueless once again strikes with retarded "grinding is teh hard lol" card.

And once again BlackSephir is incapable of posting an intelligent responce, because all he/she knows how to do is flame and insult people for expressing their opinions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wu is me

The whole topic really just boils down to whether you prefer to play a game which encourages identity via association with only one character, or if you prefer a game that encourages play of multiple characters.

This is the point which baffles me more then anything.

You all started playing GWs knowing it was an RP/MMO which was a set playing style. I.E you create a character in pve and progess them through the storyline and that characters individual actions and achievement result in better armor, weapons and skills etc etc.

That is the basic premis for any RPG and MMO!

PvP on the other hand is different because its basically like playing a FPS where all that matters is how well you kill and your characters are disposable and increasing your ranks there. So having account based title in pve is understandable.

But an RPG is an RPG! It works in a set way. Also you were all perfectly happy to create new characters and to endure any grind which existed until pve only skills were added. Why? What is so special and astounding about pve only skills that entire threads like this are needed?

The answer is nothing!

All you see is "ooo powerfull skill" and all of a sudden its the holy grail of all skills! Regardless of whether it actually of any use, or whether you need it to accomplish anything or whether its even important. You just see a skill which can be very powerfull and you want it!

Is that justification to start making comments like "pve only skills + titles has created a barrier to creating new characters"? No it isnt!

Not if you were perfectly happy to endure the other grind which has existed since day one in GWs and yet you still made new chars. Yet when the grind doesnt suit you, and you cant get what you want easily, all of a sudden its a "barrier" and you all blow it out of proportion!

I can remember when people kicked off after titles were added, because apparently it was adding more grind which they had to endure. Was anyone forcing them to max titles before pve only skills were added? Nope! At the start none of them even had benefits to earning them and still people tried to argue they were being pressured into it.

Wheres the logic in that?

Then they added benefits to titles and suddenly again we're being forced to max them out! What benefits? to make you a little bit luckier or to add one point more damage to a creature? Big deal. Can you not manage without that! Are you that bad a player you desperately need an extra pip of damage against a minion or destroyer or char?

Then they connected skills to certain titles and again people are saying we're being forced into maxing them! How exactly? what importance do these skills have that you feel pressured into maxing them out?

Its like a kid in a toy store! The latest toy is out and they want it, regardless of whether they need it! But in the case of pve only skills you have to put some work in to make them stronger and those same people winge.

I completely understand the want to have everything ingame. To have all armor and weapons, all skills (normal, elite and pve only), to have all exploration and all titles maxed out. But you dont need all those things. You can play this game without them. I just wish people would drop this nonsense about being forced into grinding and they would admit their choosing to do it.

Even if they removed the title + pve only skill requirement, you would all start winging about some other aspect of grind afterwards. Some of you will not be happy unless everything ingame is given to you with out needing any effort. I also realise some of you wont have alot of time to spare and you cant spend hours collecting this or that, or exploring or maxing a title.

So why are you playing an RPG or MMO which requires hours of play? Thats like shooting yourself in the foot and complaining you pressed the trigger!

You knew when you started it was a game which required hours of play and time put into it! You cant then turn around and complain you havent time to earn stuff and you want it all given to you.

Jongo River · Nov 12, 2007, 10:52 AM // 10:52

Must say I haven't read a huge amount of this thread, beyond the OP's post, but /signed for what it's worth.

Titles are the only part of Guild Wars that routinely piss me off. With GW:EN's HoM and snarky NPC's they've become elevated (for me) to near game-breaking levels of irritation.

I know there has always been this attitude in GW that some things should be held back for those who work - that there should be stuff which is "exclusive" in some way, and that's fine, so long as you judge everyone's work equally. Character-based titles clearly favour players who focus their efforts on 1 or 2 toons, over an entire accounts worth. Not really acceptable in a game which gives at least 8 slots to a "fully-chaptered" account and from a company that encourages the purchase of more.

Isileth · Nov 12, 2007, 11:03 AM // 11:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

Why do we need pve only skills maxed out? what aspect of the game requires and needs you to have them maxed out? Someone answer me that!!

What aspect of the game requires a maxed weapon? I finished proph without a max dmg bow.
What aspect of the game requires max armour? I finished proph without a max AL mask.

Of course its possible.

That doesnt stop the fact that not having max isnt a disadvantage.

pve skills have even more effect than a non max weapon for example.
Losing 1 max dmg on your weapon.
Losing 32 dmg on "You Move Like a Dwarf!". (Plus 5 secods of cripple)

You cant say there isnt a disadvantage to not having them maxed because there is. With the current system playing with multiple chars means you are at a disadvantage because even though you have done exactly the same as someone else, you come out with a disadvantage.

*Edit to include freekedoutfish's edit*

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

So why are you playing an RPG or MMO which requires hours of play? Thats like shooting yourself in the foot and complaining you pressed the trigger!

You knew when you started it was a game which required hours of play and time put into it! You cant then turn around and complain you havent time to earn stuff and you want it all given to you.

Because GW is advertised as a game where skill>time?
Because it was advertised we wouldnt have to spend ages grinding just to be at the same level as others.
That a casual player could join and have access to everything?

freekedoutfish · Nov 12, 2007, 12:00 PM // 12:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isileth

Because GW is advertised as a game where skill>time?
Because it was advertised we wouldnt have to spend ages grinding just to be at the same level as others.
That a casual player could join and have access to everything?

You are just as equal to the guy next to you, regardless of whether you have a maxed pve title or not.

There seems to be some missconception that you need a maxed set of pve only skills to be a "good player", or at the very least "on equal ground" to everyone else.

Which is just simply nonsense. As you said, you dont need max armor or max weapons to complete these games either. It may be harder, but it can be done.

Obviously most would use max gear and weapons to make it fair on the rest of the team, otherwise you are unfairly making them protect you because your more prone to taking damage.

But having your pve only skills not be max, doesnt make you less equal thenthe guy next to you. Its about skill and experience, not whether you have every skill ingame.

What about those players who dont even own GWEN! Are they disadvantaged because they cant even access GWEN pve only skills? Are they less equal then you for the same reason?

Ofcourse not!

It worries me that people think they have to own the exact same stuff as everyone else ingame, to be considered "equal" or "as good as them". You dont!

You dont need to have the same skill selecton or weapon or armor set as the next guy! This is the entire point of a game like GWs, where you can choose to play how you wish. You shouldnt feel pressured into maxing your pve oonly skills to play the game.

But that begs the question; where have got this impression from?

Who or what has made you believe you need to max your pve only skills to feel equal to everyone else?

Has a player judged you in some way based on your rank?

wu is me · Nov 12, 2007, 12:42 PM // 12:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

This is the point which baffles me more then anything.

You all started playing GWs knowing it was an RP/MMO which was a set playing style. I.E you create a character in pve and progess them through the storyline and that characters individual actions and achievement result in better armor, weapons and skills etc etc.

That is the basic premis for any RPG and MMO!

Duno about the rest of you, but i decided to give guildwars a try, because, it was fundamentally designed differently to your typical grindy RPG.
My impression was that part of its design strategy, and i believe success, was based on the game design strategy, of placing less emphasis on "earning" titles and "developing" your character.
Really, just because a game has RPG elements, doesn't mean it has to follow the typical MMO/RPG style design at all to be enjoyable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

Not if you were perfectly happy to endure the other grind which has existed since day one in GWs and yet you still made new chars. Yet when the grind doesnt suit you, and you cant get what you want easily, all of a sudden its a "barrier" and you all blow it out of proportion!

Yes it is a barrier. You could say that KoaBD is the holy grail of PvE title tracks, since any1 who does PvE would at some point in time consider progressing this title track.
When we make a new character, and choose to advance it, and make it effectively playable, you've made the choice to forgo progression in the KoaBD rank of another one of your characters. The barrier that every1 is talking about is the opportunity cost, or sacrifice, one must make from one characters KoaBD title track, in order to make another character.

Quote:

Originally Posted by freeekedoutfish

Then they added benefits to titles and suddenly again we're being forced to max them out! What benefits? to make you a little bit luckier or to add one point more damage to a creature? Big deal. Can you not manage without that! Are you that bad a player you desperately need an extra pip of damage against a minion or destroyer or char?

Then they connected skills to certain titles and again people are saying we're being forced into maxing them! How exactly? what importance do these skills have that you feel pressured into maxing them out?

And the fact that PvE skills tied to the titles exist reinforces the "barrier", since, given a limited, equivalent play time, a player with one character will have superior combat capeabilities compared to someone who plays multiple characters.
Nobody likes being inferior, even if it were true, that the PvE skills don't provide a significant advantage.

So yes, there is a barrier to the creation of more than one character.

The million dollar question is, Should there be???

Isileth · Nov 12, 2007, 12:43 PM // 12:43

Well ill start at the end, has a player judged me on my rank.

No, I dont pug. Go 7 heroes

And no, no its not equal if one person does more dmg.
If it was equal the dmg would be......equal.

And it has nothing to do with being a good or bad player, nor to do with needing them to complete the game.

The problem comes in with that another player has an advantage even though the other person has achieved the exact same titles.

What I did notice is you agree that having non max weapons and armour is a disadvantage in that it means the rest of the team have to cover for you.

How is that not true with skills as well? If having less armour is a disadvantage what about skills that add armour?

And at the people who dont own GW:EN

I dont own CoD4, should I complain I cant use the CoD4 weapons in CoD2?
Its a different game. If they dont own it they dont get access.

Sorry for not quoting btw, was eating lunch. Im sure you can figure out which bits im refering to.

BlackSephir · Nov 12, 2007, 01:43 PM // 13:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

And once again BlackSephir is incapable of posting an intelligent responce, because all he/she knows how to do is flame and insult people for expressing their opinions.

Because, if you haven't notice, retarded "grinding is hard" was beaten to death here and in many other threads. You probably haven't but that's not surprising, really.
I've said many times why grinding isn't hard, thus why his whole argument is retarded. You, of course, like always, failed to realize it.

freekedoutfish · Nov 12, 2007, 01:52 PM // 13:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isileth

And at the people who dont own GW:EN

I dont own CoD4, should I complain I cant use the CoD4 weapons in CoD2?
Its a different game. If they dont own it they dont get access.

Sorry for not quoting btw, was eating lunch. Im sure you can figure out which bits im refering to.

I dont mean to pick, but that comparison is flawed. Your cant compare the using weapons from CoD4 in CoD2, to whether you own all campaigns and the expansion in GWs.

The games you mentioned are completely different games, which you cant connect.

The campaigns and expanion in in GWs are connected and work alongside one another. You use equipment, and skills from all campaigns inside one another!

So by your logic its unequal that a player can cap or buy a skill in factions, or Nightfall or GWEN which they cant buy or cap in prophercies!

So if a player have prophercies and GWEN and none of the other campaigns, then by your logic its unequal and unfair because they cant use that skill.

Yet we all accept mechanism as being ok and acceptable.

So how can people then turn around and complain whether one person has a maxed pve only skill and another doesnt. What about those who dont own GWEN at all or any of the campaigns which have pve only skills?

Are they unequal or do we just accept thats how it is and say "well go buy the game and you'l get it"?

What if they cant afford it or their not allowed to for some reason!

I understand you need or want to have everything by on the same level and have everything be accessible at the same strength to everyone.

But again this is a hypecritical situation.

1) (as already said) You were all fine with the pre-existing grind ingame, until suddenly it effects oober skills, then all hell breaks loose.

2) We already have a situation where a player can own a skill, which another player may not (i.e they dont own a certain campaign or the expansion). Yet your all ok with that?

If your logic is to stand up, then we need the entire skill system throughout GWs to be redesigned and to add all skills to all campaigns. That way removing any chance of an unequal footing.

A perfect example being "flesh golem" which you can only get in factions, and yet its considered a must for most MM builds. Ive seen numerious times when a person has asked "do you not have FG?" in a PUG. Yet people dont kick up a fuss and demand that flesh golem be available to cap in prophercies or NF do they!

Does that not create inequality for those who dont own that campaign? But we seem fine with that! So why is this idea of one person having a stronger pve only skill any different to that?

Its not!

Its the exact same situation. A person has something you dont, and you dont like it! Yet that mechanism already exists in other situations and we're ok with it.

The only difference is you cant go spend £15/$30 and buy access to it, instead you're expected to put a few hours of bounty hunting in to increase its ability.

There are even pve only skills in GWEN which can only be accessed through Polymock, drawf'n boxing, Norn Tournemants or quests like killing the Griffin.

I hate Polymock and I cant kill the last guy in the Tournament. I also cannot kill the Griffin. That means I cant get summoning pve only skills and the skills from the other two.

I notice no ones bothered that you have to access certain pve only skills playing none pve content like polymock and tournaments and fighting 1v1 creatures.

Surely thats unequal because some people dont like that doing that kind of thing?

Isileth · Nov 12, 2007, 02:07 PM // 14:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

1) (as already said) You were all fine with the pre-existing grind ingame, until suddenly it effects oober skills, then all hell breaks loose.

Yes because before it was skill>time. I didnt have to put time in just to have my skills do the same dmg as everyone else.

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

2) We already have a situation where a player can own a skill, which another player may not (i.e they dont own a certain campaign or the expansion). Yet your all ok with that?

Yes im ok with that. They havent paid to have access to skill x and y. The games are standalone, its how Anet makes its money. So as a system it makes sense.

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

Its not!

Its the exact same situation. A person has something you dont, and you dont like it! Yet that mechanism already exists in other situations and we're ok with it.

The only difference is you cant go spend £15/$30 and buy access to it, instead you're expected to put a few hours of bounty hunting in to increase its ability.

Time>skill is different to owning the damn game.
GW was always advertised as a game with skill>time. GW was also advertised as something you had to buy to play.

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

There are even pve only skills in GWEN which can only be accessed through Polymock, drawf'n boxing, Norn Tournemants or quests like killing the Griffin.

I hate Polymock and I cant kill the last guy in the Tournament. I also cannot kill the Griffin. That means I cant get summoning pve only skills and the skills from the other two.

I notice no ones bothered that you have to access certain pve only skills playing none pve content like polymock and tournaments and fighting 1v1 creatures.

Surely thats unequal because some people dont like that doing that kind of thing?

Notice how getting them is skill based over time based? Because if you dont have the skill to get it no matter how many times if you dont improve you wont get it. Even after that it needs rep grind to max it out anyways.

Besides that is pve, there is no player on the other end. Just because its in the form of PvP doesnt mean it is.
There is shrine capping in proph does that mean that mission is PvP?
You are facing AI, its not PvP.

So if you want to remove unlocking pve skills from pve you can start a thread about that. Because thats not what this is about. This is about the grind based titles.

MirkoTeran · Nov 12, 2007, 03:03 PM // 15:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackSephir

Because, if you haven't notice, retarded "grinding is hard" was beaten to death here and in many other threads. You probably haven't but that's not surprising, really.
I've said many times why grinding isn't hard, thus why his whole argument is retarded. You, of course, like always, failed to realize it.

Where did I say grinding itself was hard? I sad making titles account wide makes game easier. Its really simple: game difficulty is one of the basic axis that you can judge the game on.

Code:

   Easier              Same              Harder
<------------------------|------------------------>

If you make titles account wide, does that make game harder or stay the same? By all common sense, no. So there is only 1 option left. It's easier. I'm not saying the difficulty axis is orthogonal to all or even any other criteria, so changing any other will probably affect this one. I'm just not supporting any changes that move the marker on this axis to easy. Simple as that.

Shakkara · Nov 12, 2007, 03:10 PM // 15:10

/signed

I want to play with more then one character.

freekedoutfish · Nov 12, 2007, 03:18 PM // 15:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isileth

Time>skill is different to owning the damn game.
GW was always advertised as a game with skill>time. GW was also advertised as something you had to buy to play....

...Notice how getting them is skill based over time based? Because if you dont have the skill to get it no matter how many times if you dont improve you wont get it. Even after that it needs rep grind to max it out anyways.

Where and how was the game advertised as skill based?

You talk like a disgruntled customer who wants their money back due to false advertising. You bought an online game which was subject to constant, unstated, changes! You knew that!

How does flesh golem or any other elite skill require skill to cap?

When I was doing skill hunter it was just a case of check the wiki, find the location, go there and kill the creature. Flesh Golem is on the easiest skills to cap and requires no skill at all to get. You just walk about 2 minutes out of the main city, cross a bridge and kill a very easy boss.

Sorry to contradict you there, but capping elites is just a matter of time not skill!

Aquiring skills, whether it be normal or elite, has never required any skill. You either just walk to a trader and buy them or stand over a dead body and activate sig cap.

So how has there suddenly been a shift in game style surrounding skills, with the addition of pve only skills?

In aqual fact it takes more skill to aquire a pve only skill then a normal or elite skill, because they all require you to complete a quest, mini-game or face a hard boss. The time sink only comes in when you want to get beyond rank 5 and max it out.

So again, you're happy with the current system where you just buy a skill from a trader or cap it from a boss which requires no skill at all. But you have an issue with pve only skills, which actually require skill to attain?

I fully admit maxing them out then takes a time sink, but you dont need them maxed and you should be rank 5 by the time you finish GWEN. At rank 5 they should be just as powerfull as most normal skills and perfectly effective.

Polymock is a perfect example, as are the Norn Tournaments or fighting a Griffin, etc etc of this required skill. Although as I said above, I personally hate polymock and the tournaments and I cant kill that damn Griffin

Again I have to ask, why do you need them maxed out? what challenge in GWEN is that hard (even in HM) where you need a maxed out pve only skill to do it? Im yet to get an actual description of an instance!

One point though...

Alot of people have already complained that GWEN was too easy and it was. Something we didnt expect from "high end content". Surely having access to maxed pve only skills from the start of GWEN would just make that worse?

Surely its a bad thing to have +15 damage against destroyers the instant you enter GWEN. Any early quests or mission which include destroyers would become a walk in the park.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shakkara

/signed

I want to play with more then one character.

Whos stopping you?

Sleeper Service · Nov 12, 2007, 03:49 PM // 15:49

"Where and how was the game advertised as skill based?"

you repeat yourself. must be a feature that you enjoy. repeating.

the game has always been promoted as a SKILL based game.

" (...)You either just walk to a trader and buy them or stand over a dead body and activate sig cap."

Its the case NOW, but some time before you hoped onto the bandwagon with all your grindy friends it DID require skill and timing. -no im not going to explain do your own dam research + youll only "forget" about it and bring up the same REPETITIVE incoherent convictions over and over again.

"So how has there suddenly been a shift in game style surrounding skills, with the addition of pve only skills?"

been addressed and explained before.

"I fully admit maxing them out then takes a time sink, but you dont need them maxed and you should be rank 5 by the time you finish GWEN. At rank 5 they should be just as powerfull as most normal skills and perfectly effective."

R5 is as effective as R8? no its not. But you know that already. yet you present this argument AGAIN.

"Again I have to ask, why do you need them maxed out? what challenge in GWEN is that hard (even in HM) where you need a maxed out pve only skill to do it? Im yet to get an actual description of an instance!"

addressed before using counter examples. you refuse(?) to understand, or maybe you just like repeating the same damm things over and over.

"Surely its a bad thing to have +15 damage against destroyers the instant you enter GWEN. Any early quests or mission which include destroyers would become a walk in the park."

again addressed before. Repeatedly. In any case WHEN exactly does one face destroyers from the start of GWEN? (apart from the first portal when you are not supposed to fight them) destroyers are met just before Rata Sum, by then you should have done a few dungeons anyways no? its NOT about RANK its about PVE SKILLs that take mindless repetitive BORING actions to become truly effective. FYI it is possible to complete GWEN without using a single pve skill, it takes longer, its harder and ultimately completely idiotic that the PLAYER who has grinded these titles on another toon be refused access to the skills unlocked potential on the basis of WHAT? (s)he didn't spend the time required to unlock it? oh wait...THEY DID.

CHARACTER BASED GRIND REWARDING PVE SKILL TITLES ARE STOPPING ME FROM PLAYING MORE THAN ONE CHARACTER.

what part of that do you fail to comprehend? in what way does changing this AFFECT you and your little personal fantasy repetitive rpg world? oh wait. in no way.

bel unbreakable · Nov 12, 2007, 04:18 PM // 16:18

i like the idea partly
sure the lucky /unluky tiles
the drunkard the sweet tooth the treasure and wisdom titles.
as those take an insane time to max
but the others definatly not those should remain char based
most require little or no grind

Isileth · Nov 12, 2007, 04:41 PM // 16:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by MirkoTeran

Where did I say grinding itself was hard? I sad making titles account wide makes game easier. Its really simple: game difficulty is one of the basic axis that you can judge the game on.

Code:

   Easier              Same              Harder
<------------------------|------------------------>

If you make titles account wide, does that make game harder or stay the same? By all common sense, no. So there is only 1 option left. It's easier. I'm not saying the difficulty axis is orthogonal to all or even any other criteria, so changing any other will probably affect this one. I'm just not supporting any changes that move the marker on this axis to easy. Simple as that.

No it doesnt make it easier. It makes it quicker.
Making the game easier would be for example reducing all enemies by 2 levels.

Reducing grind is just that, the grind is reduced. Grind isnt hard or skillful. So removing/reducing it doesnt have an effect on the level of difficulty with the game.

@freekedoutfish

I do have to agree with Sleeper here, you are starting to repeat questions that have been answered before, in some cases even asked by yourself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

You talk like a disgruntled customer who wants their money back due to false advertising. You bought an online game which was subject to constant, unstated, changes! You knew that!

Where have I said I want my money back? Im here supporting and discussing a proposed change I think would improve the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

The time sink only comes in when you want to get beyond rank 5 and max it out.

Exactly. There is a difference between R5 and R10. Someone who uses multiple chars currently is required to spent more time grinding rep to get them maxed. With the change once you have done it once, you dont have to do it again.

You can if you want to thats up to you. But for those of us who dislike grind, who prefer skill>time this would mean we dont have to grind just to be equal to someone else.

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

I fully admit maxing them out then takes a time sink, but you dont need them maxed and you should be rank 5 by the time you finish GWEN. At rank 5 they should be just as powerfull as most normal skills and perfectly effective.

But less powerful than if they where R10. Thats what the comparison is to, not any other skills. Its the comparision of R5 to R10. The difference is pretty big.

10-20 secs in skill length in some cases
20-40 extra damage
5-10 seconds of extra conditions

So you cant deffend it with they work just as well. Because they dont.

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

Again I have to ask, why do you need them maxed out? what challenge in GWEN is that hard (even in HM) where you need a maxed out pve only skill to do it? Im yet to get an actual description of an instance!

Again where do you need a max weapon? Max armour? You dont.
That doesnt mean you arent at a disadvantage because of it.

Even though I have done exactly the same achievements as someone else, because I choose to play multiple chars I get put at a disadvantage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

Alot of people have already complained that GWEN was too easy and it was. Something we didnt expect from "high end content". Surely having access to maxed pve only skills from the start of GWEN would just make that worse?

Surely its a bad thing to have +15 damage against destroyers the instant you enter GWEN. Any early quests or mission which include destroyers would become a walk in the park.

You dont have to display the title.
If someone thinks its to easy they can just not turn it on.
You can just not use a certain skill.

For example I sometimes do missions without 8/8 players. No one is forcing anyone to have to use them if they dont want to. If they do want to use them, they can do that as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

Whos stopping you? (from playing with more than once char)

Nothing is stopping anyone, but there is a disadvantage to doing so. If you change the titles to reward the player for the time they put in rather than the char it removes that disadvantage.

freekedoutfish · Nov 12, 2007, 05:03 PM // 17:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sleeper Service

.

Dude chill! Its not that big a deal is it? are you that completely crippled by pve only skills, that you cannot make a new character or play the game?

No your not!

Your taking this entire thing far too seriously. You are not being prevented from playing the game or making a new char, just because some pve only skills require grnd to max.

You hav 100s of alternative skills to use!

I dont have summoning skills from polymock because I dont like that game. Have I kicked a huge fuss up? no!

Am I disadvantaged because another player can summon an aid to help them but I cant? By your logic yes,

But am I bothered? No!

Your taking this too serously, when you honestly think all this is preventing yourself and others from playing. You dont need this stuff to play. Just do something else instead of spending hours grinding to max skills.

If you dont like doing it, then dont.

Isileth · Nov 12, 2007, 05:11 PM // 17:11

Or the system could be changed so both groups are happy.

Those who play with a single char wouldnt be effected.
Those who play with multiple chars wouldnt be at a disadvantage for doing so.

And of course anyone who wants to start a new char without the titles and such can just not display it or just not take a skill.

tyche7 · Nov 12, 2007, 05:18 PM // 17:18

/signed -- 1,000 times over

bryann380 · Nov 12, 2007, 05:26 PM // 17:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

Where and how was the game advertised as skill based?

It's on the Prophecies game box itself. Under the Eve flap in the upper left corner, it says...

"You'll prove your worth with every battle as skill, not hours played, decides your fate. Whether battling horrific monsters or competing at the highest levels of tournament play, it will always be your skill that earns you victory or defeat. Are you up to the challenge?"

freekedoutfish · Nov 12, 2007, 06:08 PM // 18:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by bryann380

It's on the Prophecies game box itself. Under the Eve flap in the upper left corner, it says...

"You'll prove your worth with every battle as skill, not hours played, decides your fate. Whether battling horrific monsters or competing at the highest levels of tournament play, it will always be your skill that earns you victory or defeat. Are you up to the challenge?"

Fair enough.

But you can max the GWEN titles using skill. It all depends how you do it. Whos to say it doesnt take skill to bounty hunt?

It take skill to do the dungeons and quests in NM the first time around to get to rank5. Surely it also takes skill to replay dungeons and quests in HM and to refill your handbook and dungeon books!

You can max GWEN title by replaying dungeons in HM and refilling the books. That take skill (admittadly also time, but so does anything ingame). It takes time to replay missions in campaigns in HM. It takes time to save for armor and weapons.

It takes time to do everything.

But it also takes skill at the same time, if you do it a skillfull way.